Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

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Fender
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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by Fender » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:46 pm

In a more recent publication, I see average surface (of the tread) Brinell Hardness values of 321 to 363, depending on class of service.
Mild Steel averages about 120 BHN.
Dan Watson

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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by LIALLEGHENY » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:05 am

So if you were to make wheels from 4140 pre hardened, which ranges from Rc28-35 you would be closely matching the full size.

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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by Pontiacguy1 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:30 am

Interesting, but I believe that we are over-thinking this just a bit. The railroads were trying to maximize their longevity and lengthen the service intervals on their locomotives because they were trying to maximize their profit. Their locomotives rolled many thousands of miles over steel rails before having their tires turned or replaced. Our locomotives may roll a few thousand miles, but absolutely nothing like what the full-size did. Also, a lot of our miles are on aluminum rail as well. I've never seen a steel tire worn out from running in our scales. It may have happened somewhere, but I've never heard or seen of one. Just get some A36 plate, some DOM tubing, or whatever works the best size-wise and be done with it.

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Adirondack
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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by Adirondack » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:40 am

Pontiacguy1 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:30 am
Interesting, but I believe that we are over-thinking this just a bit. The railroads were trying to maximize their longevity and lengthen the service intervals on their locomotives because they were trying to maximize their profit. Their locomotives rolled many thousands of miles over steel rails before having their tires turned or replaced. Our locomotives may roll a few thousand miles, but absolutely nothing like what the full-size did. Also, a lot of our miles are on aluminum rail as well. I've never seen a steel tire worn out from running in our scales. It may have happened somewhere, but I've never heard or seen of one. Just get some A36 plate, some DOM tubing, or whatever works the best size-wise and be done with it.
I'll second that. As a group, we do tend to overthink things.

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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by NP317 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:29 pm

Note on scale mass:
Our model locomotives present approximately the cube root of mass on the rails, compared to full-sized locomotives.
So our models will have lower traction on rails, by the mathematics.
Adirondack said it nicely: "As a group, we tend to overthink things."

The only wheel issues I've ever seen in 7.x gauge are with cast iron treads:
a few broken flanges on cast iron wheels from various interactions with the rails,
and tread/flange wear from many miles of operations.
RussN

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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by jcbrock » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:44 pm

To tell the truth, when I saw the ARA recommended different steels for passenger/freight/switching, I felt the prototype was guilty of a little overthinking, but it was interesting so I posted it.
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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by rkcarguy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:47 pm

NP317 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:29 pm
Note on scale mass:
Our model locomotives present approximately the cube root of mass on the rails, compared to full-sized locomotives.
Agreed. The S-12 I'm building in 2" scale is estimated to come out around 800-1000#'s, yet in full size it was about 250,000#'s. That's 31,250#'s per wheel in full size, yet only 100-125#'s per wheel in 1/6th scale. These loadings shouldn't even phase mild steel, I'd be more concerned with flange wear from exceptionally tight radius turns and that's only if you are on steel rails. On aluminum rails, the flange is going to carve out the aluminum or step up over it.

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cbrew
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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by cbrew » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:02 pm

rkcarguy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:47 pm
Agreed. The S-12 I'm building in 2" scale is estimated to come out around 800-1000#'s, yet in full size it was about 250,000#'s. That's 31,250#'s per wheel in full size, yet only 100-125#'s per wheel in 1/6th scale. These loadings shouldn't even phase mild steel, I'd be more concerned with flange wear from exceptionally tight radius turns and that's only if you are on steel rails. On aluminum rails, the flange is going to carve out the aluminum or step up over it.
At 100 to 125 per wheel, you have nothing to worry about,
I shoe-d my Allen american 13 years ago and you can still see the imperfections (tool marks) on the 1018 tires with 255 lbs axle loading.
If it is not live steam. its not worth it.

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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by LIALLEGHENY » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:50 pm

I don't feel it's a matter of over thinking...it's more a matter of preference based on your operating conditions and your wallet. Whether your running on aluminum or steel rail, how often are you going to run, what kind of load do you think you will be pulling, how tight is the radius on the track/s your going to run on, and how often , if ever, do you want to tear down your loco to re-profile or replace the wheels/drivers. There is also your wallet to factor in, there is material cost , but also can you turn the wheels yourself, or do you have to pay someone else to do it? All of these factors should influence your decision.

Nyle

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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by Harold_V » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:14 am

What Nyle said. If an individual builds a hobby engine with longevity in mind, it may well enjoy a long lifespan without any major maintenance, which can't be said for engines built with minimum standards. Hardened pins, steel tires and other "luxuries" may well spell the difference between successful running for years on end, or the irregular shopping of the engine to repair features that didn't last as long as they may have.

Make your choices according to your financial ability and long term desires.

I can honestly say I have never regretted doing a job properly. I also recognize that my "properly" may not be yours. As in many instances, this isn't about being right or wrong---just personal preferences.

H
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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by WJH » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:10 am

Some A36 plate, grind a treppening tool for the lathe so I can cut the centers out without waste, just turn them. Many options. DOM would be convenient.

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Re: Most cost efficient way to get steel tire blanks?

Post by Harold_V » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:19 pm

WJH wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:10 am
Some A36 plate, grind a treppening tool for the lathe so I can cut the centers out without waste,
That's an excellent way to approach the problem, but it's not as easy as it sounds for folks who don't have robust machines. You're caught in a situation where a broad tool requires a lot of rigidity to withstand the forces involved, otherwise there's serious chatter that is difficult to overcome. That the grind of the tool, due to the radius of the cut, demands that the tool not be as robust as might be possible for cuts taken towards center, you're caught between a rock and a hard place.

Not suggesting that it won't work for light duty machines. Just that it can be challenging.

H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.

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