The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

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thunderskunk
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by thunderskunk »

RET wrote:Hi Ian,

Thunderskunk is right. When you are designing machine tools, you design to minimize deflection, not for strength. That is why machine tools have heavy castings, etc. Cast iron is also used a lot because it won't gall and seize at all, it "self lubricates" because of graphite in the grain structure. While FRP materials are strong, they deflect a lot which is the last thing you want in a machine tool. Even if you used a lot of it, the resin "gives" way too much. You need materials that have a high Young's Modulus (stress vs. strain). For steel or cast iron that is 30,000,000.

All of this is why I used the materials I did. At the moment I have to decide if the CNC thread should be in the CNC section or here. It could be here because it won't be that long. We'll see.

Richard Trounce.
Y’know that brings up an interesting point, maybe I can drag it back into the Kozo category.

Kozo’s books are so popular because they are complete instructionals: follow every step and you’ve learned how to machine while also producing an engine. They use common home shop tools to the point you could almost do it without a mill.

What about a CNC style Kozo book? What should that look like? Should the CAD models be offered with the book?

It’s impossibly difficult since you can’t write a book about everybody’s use case; inventor, solidworks, F360, mastercam, featurecam, camworks, HSM, etc. As long as you have a good post processor I wouldn’t be worried about different mills and lathes, but that’s a concern too. More and more people have CNC capabilities at home. I think a project book like that would get some traction.

Not me though. My handwriting sucks.
"We'll cross that bridge once we realize nobody ever built one."
thunderskunk
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by thunderskunk »

Harlock wrote:If you try again in Solidworks, might I suggest using a traditional set of part and assembly files, rather than a single multibody part. Then all your problems down the road will go away. You could probably still do dynamic scaling with tables if you really wanted to. The main issue with that in practical terms is that you would want to adapt some of the parts to standard stock sizes, and a direct scaling may not play out well in some cases.

As a second suggestion for CAD software, give Alibre Design a try. It is a solidworks knock-off that is also a true feature-based solids modeler. I found it similar enough that it was easy to use when I tried it out. There is a free trial as well. https://www.alibre.com/ The hobby tier software is in the hundreds of dollars rather than the thousands as in the case of Solidworks. For a while the product was unavailable, but has since returned to independent status after being subsumed by another company.

I have a standalone bought and paid for (by an Aerospace company I used to work for which is now defunct) version of Solidworks installed on a machine here but without paying a lot more money I can't transfer it to my new machine, so I've been thinking of switching to Alibre. It seems to open my solidworks 2016 part files just fine, so there is a path forward.

Regarding 3D sketches, the only time I've ever needed to use those was modelling a composite airframe with a very complicated shape. I've found little need for 3D sketches in railroad-land. Everything can be made with 2D sketches and resultant features.

Best,

-Mike

You’re absolutely right on going the old-fashioned route with solidworks. At the very least, I can take it in chunks versus everything on a single part file. I will say solidworks does a pretty good job of changing dimensions; ie if configuration 1 has a frame thickness of 0.5”, you scale it down by .6 and get .333, when you change the .333 to a .375 in the sketch, it’ll update in your design table for just that configuration. Usually. Most of the time. Depending on a lot of variables.

If you haven’t figured out already, I like to make things complicated.

I have never heard of Alibre, and am definitely looking it up. I think after four different CAD systems I’m about ready to settle on something.

Y’know they kept trying to sell 3D sketching as the new way to sketch in general, and it’s not even close. I think it’s the way to go, and I’m sure more powerful hardware and extended time spent on perfecting subject software will eventually get there. Still, 3D sketching does not come close to being reasonable for the common, or even uncommon part. In the end, drawings are in 2D. We can prattle on about making 3D PDFs but when it comes down to it, people don’t have 3D eyes. I like the principal, and I would argue that the same was probably said when the world transitioned to CAD from the drafting table. I’ll let my kids figure it out. For now, I tried it, enjoyed it, and probably will never use it again.
"We'll cross that bridge once we realize nobody ever built one."
datman
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by datman »

RET wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 11:54 am Hi Ian,

Thunderskunk is right. When you are designing machine tools, you design to minimize deflection, not for strength. That is why machine tools have heavy castings, etc. Cast iron is also used a lot because it won't gall and seize at all, it "self lubricates" because of graphite in the grain structure. While FRP materials are strong, they deflect a lot which is the last thing you want in a machine tool. Even if you used a lot of it, the resin "gives" way too much. You need materials that have a high Young's Modulus (stress vs. strain). For steel or cast iron that is 30,000,000.

All of this is why I used the materials I did. At the moment I have to decide if the CNC thread should be in the CNC section or here. It could be here because it won't be that long. We'll see.

Richard Trounce.
This could open up a big discussion, but need to leave it out of this thread and forum probably.

Ian
RET
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by RET »

Hi Ian,

As you can see,I've started a new thread on the CNC mill. Strictly speaking, it doesn't belong in this forum, but I put it here because of its connection to this thread. In the future, Harold can always move it to the CNC Forum if necessary.

This post is just so people will know it exists if they are interested.

Richard Trounce.
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Harlock
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Re: The 1

Post by Harlock »

thunderskunk wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 1:40 pm Y’know that brings up an interesting point, maybe I can drag it back into the Kozo category.

Kozo’s books are so popular because they are complete instructionals: follow every step and you’ve learned how to machine while also producing an engine. They use common home shop tools to the point you could almost do it without a mill.

What about a CNC style Kozo book? What should that look like? Should the CAD models be offered with the book?

It’s impossibly difficult since you can’t write a book about everybody’s use case; inventor, solidworks, F360, mastercam, featurecam, camworks, HSM, etc. As long as you have a good post processor I wouldn’t be worried about different mills and lathes, but that’s a concern too. More and more people have CNC capabilities at home. I think a project book like that would get some traction.

Not me though. My handwriting sucks.
I have the PERFECT book for you. Ed Hume (sometimes of these forums) has written a beautiful book about building a Class 'A' climax that is geared (no pun intended) towards CNC users. I did a review of the book for Digital Machinist magazine.

Further, the book is patterned after Kozo's books as he is a great fan of the master. Ed and I travelled to Japan some years ago to visit Kozo. Ed has built most of Kozo's engines scaled down to G Scale, using CNC. He also built the A3 in original scale.

Here is a link to the book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Climax-Class-Ste ... 1545404895

Don't be phased by the high price, it's worth it. Very nice and detailed volume.

Best,

-Mike
Live Steam Photography and more - gallery.mikemassee.com
Product Development and E-Commerce, Allen Models of Nevada
thunderskunk
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by thunderskunk »

Harlock wrote:
thunderskunk wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 1:40 pm Y’know that brings up an interesting point, maybe I can drag it back into the Kozo category.

Kozo’s books are so popular because they are complete instructionals: follow every step and you’ve learned how to machine while also producing an engine. They use common home shop tools to the point you could almost do it without a mill.

What about a CNC style Kozo book? What should that look like? Should the CAD models be offered with the book?

It’s impossibly difficult since you can’t write a book about everybody’s use case; inventor, solidworks, F360, mastercam, featurecam, camworks, HSM, etc. As long as you have a good post processor I wouldn’t be worried about different mills and lathes, but that’s a concern too. More and more people have CNC capabilities at home. I think a project book like that would get some traction.

Not me though. My handwriting sucks.
I have the PERFECT book for you. Ed Hume (sometimes of these forums) has written a beautiful book about building a Class 'A' climax that is geared (no pun intended) towards CNC users. I did a review of the book for Digital Machinist magazine.

Further, the book is patterned after Kozo's books as he is a great fan of the master. Ed and I travelled to Japan some years ago to visit Kozo. Ed has built most of Kozo's engines scaled down to G Scale, using CNC. He also built the A3 in original scale.

Here is a link to the book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Climax-Class-Ste ... 1545404895

Don't be phased by the high price, it's worth it. Very nice and detailed volume.

Best,

-Mike
My wife renews my “live steam/backyard railroading” subscription every year for the B-day. That one might have to wait until Christmas, haha.
"We'll cross that bridge once we realize nobody ever built one."
thunderskunk
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by thunderskunk »

Speaking of, I’m pretty sure I bought my Kozo A3 book straight off DLS. Now it’s all on amazon and the only one available is “used good” for $150? $150??? What is going on here...

I looked it up on Village press, and they still have it at $50. Life on earth can continue. I was getting worried.
"We'll cross that bridge once we realize nobody ever built one."
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NP317
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by NP317 »

I purchased my Kozo books from Village Press.
i prefer to support their efforts over A-zon.
RussN
thunderskunk
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Re: The 1" Kozo A3 that never was (a bit of a CAD rambling)

Post by thunderskunk »

Just kidding: was window shopping and “accidentally” hit the buy now button. Oh well.

Man I suck at budgeting.
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NP317
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Re: The 1

Post by NP317 »

thunderskunk wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:04 pm Just kidding: was window shopping and “accidentally” hit the buy now button. Oh well.

Man I suck at budgeting.
Well done!
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8thscale
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Re: The 1

Post by 8thscale »

Harlock wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:56 pm Ed Hume (sometimes of these forums) has written a beautiful book about building a Class 'A' climax that is geared (no pun intended) towards CNC users. I did a review of the book for Digital Machinist magazine.
Mike, That was Vol 12 No. 4, winter 2017. Thanks for the reminder, will add that to my list!
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