Nomex for boiler insulation?

This forum is dedicated to the Live Steam Hobbyist Community.

Moderators: cbrew, Harold_V

INGE
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:49 pm

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by INGE »

Some interesting thoughts on insulation/testing. A simple test to determine which insulation method is best is simply get the steam up to pressure (steady state) and measure the outer jacket temperature with one of those cheap infra red thermometers. The hotter the jacket, the greater the heat transfer, thus higher heat loss.
User avatar
NP317
Posts: 4557
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Northern Oregon, USA

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by NP317 »

Perhaps a more accurate test would be to measure the time it takes for the boiler pressure to decrease a given amount.
RussN
User avatar
Dick_Morris
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Dick_Morris »

I'm a big fan of insulation, when I improved the energy efficiency of my house I added an exterior four inches of extruded polystyrene on the outside of the walls, under the siding, and I installed at least a foot of cellulous in the attic.

On my locomotive I was only able to fit in 1/8". I used balsa wood. It doesn't do much more than reduce the severity of the burn when I touch the boiler shell. One shouldn't expect very much from the 1/8" to 1/2" inch that can be used on a small locomotive.
User avatar
NP317
Posts: 4557
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Northern Oregon, USA

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by NP317 »

My Ten Wheeler uses 1/4" thick cork sheet for the boiler insulation.
That also provides some rigidity to support the jacketing.
So far, so good.
RussN
User avatar
Steggy
Posts: 1976
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: JB Pritzker’s Hellhole
Contact:

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Steggy »

KarlKobel wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:46 amI have been working for Vapor for the past 10 years. Although it's Vapor Bus now and our parent company is Wabtech. We make door and other equipment for transit busses. I find it ironic that I work for a railroad company in the bus division.

Yep! I'm familiar with the buyout of Vapor by Wabtech, which occurred in the mid-1990s, if I recall. At the time, Vapor was owned by Mark IV Industries, who really didn't understand what Vapor was all about. Given the prior history of Vapor, Wabtech's acquisition was probably for the best. I suspect if I were to show up on Vapor's doorstep right now I'd likely feel like I was entering another universe.

I must confess I never liked the mass transit side of the business—it is/was very political and back then, many transit authorities were full of marginal hacks who couldn't tell which end of a bus had the front bumper or why a subway has a third rail. I suspect that hasn't changed too much.

Interesting bit of history: the ancestor of the bus differential door engine was a product of National Pneumatic (no relation to the company in India). Vapor bought the technology in the early 1960s and along with it, got some of the engineers involved in the design. Vapor then applied "value engineering" (a fancy term for cost-cutting) to the product line to drive the per-piece price down to where competitors (e.g., Westcode) couldn't bid on large transit contracts without losing their shirts. I don't know what the door engine looks like now, but in my day it was a kind of crude contraption that could be a bear to correctly adjust. However, it was cheap to produce and usually worked okay. :shock:

The automatic door operators used on subway and railroad commuter cars were also a purchased technology—also subject to value engineering, and also acquired in the early 1960s. Prior to that and the bus door engine acquisition, Vapor had no presence whatsoever in mass transit. Everything the company sold was either for railroad, industrial or aircraft applications.

Fun fact: during the time I was there they had a lot of machines in the shop that dated back to the 1930s and 1940s. All of the castings used in steam heat products were machined on turret lathes and "automatic" milling machines that had been built decades before I was hired. There were a ton of ganged drill presses as well, which were pretty handy for producing brackets and other parts one might use in building his race car. :wink: Quite a few machines had War Production Board labels on them, including a humongous belt sander that was close to seven feet tall. I also got a lot of use out of that beast—excellent for shaping odd-sized parts. :D

During my tenure, Vapor was acquired by Brunswick, who had control when I resigned in 1989. At its peak, Vapor's annual sales were up over $400 million, around the late 1970s. During the time Brunswick had them sales stagnated and margin deteriorated. The company had changed a lot while I was there and I found it a less-enjoyable place to work.

When I went through the exit interview and was asked why I was leaving, I told the HR guy (can't recall his name anymore) that one of the reasons I was moving on was I missed the good old days of being out on the railroads, working in the engine houses and back shops training people on maintaining and repair Vapor products, as well as highballing down the mainline on locomotives that were testing new gadgets that Vapor had designed and, occasionally, spending the day on a passing track out in the middle of nowhere while the wreckers cleaned up the derailment that had shut down the mainline and blocked us. :D Most of that work was gone by the time I left.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Music isn’t at all difficult.  All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!  :D
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Interesting results from the boiler lagging test. I also wondered about the effectiveness of the asbestos paste lagging compound. My guess is the ceramic wool would offer much higher heat retention.

I’ve found two cases where Improving insulation makes a big difference in operation: 1) some locos have design flaws that restrict proper steam generation - poor drafting, badly designed front ends, excess steam consumption etc, and 2) boilers that operate on short tracks - aka 500’ to 1000’ backyard railroads. These are cases where it is often impossible to maintain a consistent, full head of steam. A short run of track for example, often does not allow for the kind of airflow and steam generation that you can achieve running hard, over distance.

I’ve unfortunately experienced both issues, with two different locomotives, and in these cases, improving the boiler insulation made a difference in conserving steam, and achieving and maintaining adequate boiler pressure.

Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
Steggy
Posts: 1976
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: JB Pritzker’s Hellhole
Contact:

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Steggy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:24 pmI’ve found two cases where Improving insulation makes a big difference in operation:...boilers that operate on short tracks - aka 500’ to 1000’ backyard railroads.

That's easy to fix. :wink: Just build a longer railroad. :D
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Music isn’t at all difficult.  All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!  :D
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Ahaha. Not so easy as it seems! Tried numerous times to get a permit to go around the front yard. Wife won’t give me an easement across the driveway.

Gpb
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
mcenhillk
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:28 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by mcenhillk »

How about OVER the driveway. That has two benefits. First, you can honestly say that you haven't touched the driveway. Second, the uphill climb will load the locomotive, giving you ample opportunity to run at a full head of steam. :-D
User avatar
Steggy
Posts: 1976
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:19 pm
Location: JB Pritzker’s Hellhole
Contact:

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Steggy »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:14 pm Ahaha. Not so easy as it seems! Tried numerous times to get a permit to go around the front yard. Wife won’t give me an easement across the driveway.

Gpb

I could suggest maybe finding a different wife, but don't want anyone around here beating me about the head and shoulders. :shock:
Last edited by Steggy on Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Music isn’t at all difficult.  All you gotta do is play the right notes at the right time!  :D
User avatar
Bill Shields
Posts: 10460
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 am
Location: 39.367, -75.765
Contact:

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Bill Shields »

Then it is just something that you have to mow around :D
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Berkman
Posts: 679
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Nomex for boiler insulation?

Post by Berkman »

What about the argument that insulation holds moisture against the boiler shell?
Post Reply