The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

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Pipescs
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Location: Lester Alabama

Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pipescs »

Morning Harold,

As much as possible I am trying to follow the original Harris Design.

But having said that, As I look over the original, I am becoming concerned that the original frame may not be sturdy enough to support a boiler that is close to ten inches and the increase in weight of all the components.

So your question is well founded. I will start looking at steel channel to see if I can find one that is close to his specs in 3 inches. Meantime still will be drawing at night. Off to the shop to work on my running boards on the Forney.

Have a safe day.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
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Dick_Morris
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Dick_Morris »

If you can't find the needed steel channel - several times I've used square or rectangular steel tubing and ripped/milled it to size for channel or angle. Sometimes releasing the stress causes it to need to be straightened, but it's easier than starting with a piece of solid when the needed size can't be had.
Soot n' Cinders
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Location: Marietta, Georgia

Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Soot n' Cinders »

Sounds really good Charlie! Im looking forward to see how the CAD model shapes up.
I have also had the thought of using Johns castings for the cylinders on a donkey engine, but am not sure about the status of them. Ive heard rumors through the grapevine but have not talked to John directly so I won't speculate here. Only thing I can think of might be the fact that his cylinder heads are not designed for conventional bar crosshead guides, but a new lower head could easily be made from a solid bar.
I can reach out to John and see what he says about castings and future availability. I would hate to see the patterns go away anyway, his shay is such a nice little locomotive.
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

Steam Siphon: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/leavitt ... tive-works
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Pipescs
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pipescs »

Hey Tristan,

Spoke with John on the phone today. He has no problem with me incorporating his work into the project. We discussed the future use of the castings for anyone that comes along later and wants to use the drawings. While he will eventually get out of the business, he has plans for the continued availability of the 20 Ton Shay kit and the parts should continue to be available

As he is getting ready to make an order for castings, I need to get with him to order the parts needed for the prototype. My plan is to order the cylinders ($72.00 for the pair), a set of steam chest ($32.00 for the pair), the steam chest covers ($22.00 for two), the eccentric straps ($28.00 for a pair), and the cylinder heads ($44.00 for four).

NOTE: The prices are from his website. Of course they will probably be higher when the foundry has them ready.

These are the castings I have for my Shay, sitting next to Roddy Springer's Donkey Engine. This really gives an idea of how large this will be.
DSC_6252.jpg
DSC_6253.jpg
One advantage to using these cylinder parts along with the eccentrics is the fact that I have John's drawings to work with for the machining and layout for the much simpler donkey engines.

In-laws have left for the night, Kitchen cleaned up so I will draw a little more tonight.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
Soot n' Cinders
Posts: 983
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:24 pm
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Soot n' Cinders »

Glad he's going to keep up with the castings for a while longer! And the new donkey is definitely going to be significantly bigger, but it will be able to pull way more than the original design too. For something that large, Id go ahead and plan on using a mechanical lubricator rather than a displacement. In my experience they either way over oil, or get finicky, or sometimes both.

I think a big donkey on a pair of skids on a flat car behind the shay will be quite the sight to see. And we have enough random branches here that we could put it to work out in the woods.
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

Steam Siphon: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/leavitt ... tive-works
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Pipescs
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pipescs »

For something that large, Id go ahead and plan on using a mechanical lubricator rather than a displacement. In my experience they either way over oil, or get finicky, or sometimes both.
I agree on the lubricator.

I will try to call you in the next day or so.

Tonight's Work was not much but the day has been long.
F3 Drum Side Frame (Left Side).JPG
Speaking with Steve Z on the subject of the gears/clutch disc/Brake Drum, they will be castings. I will work up the patterns and send them off to Cattail when the time comes. This will probably be a casting also.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
Soot n' Cinders
Posts: 983
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:24 pm
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Soot n' Cinders »

Pipescs wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:03 pm
For something that large, Id go ahead and plan on using a mechanical lubricator rather than a displacement. In my experience they either way over oil, or get finicky, or sometimes both.
I agree on the lubricator.

I will try to call you in the next day or so.

Tonight's Work was not much but the day has been long.

F3 Drum Side Frame (Left Side).JPG

Speaking with Steve Z on the subject of the gears/clutch disc/Brake Drum, they will be castings. I will work up the patterns and send them off to Cattail when the time comes. This will probably be a casting also.
Sounds good! I'll be around except for Thursday, so feel free to call anytime.

I'll definitely be interested to see the castings and see how Cattail does. I've heard of them but never seen any of their castings.
-Tristan

Projects
-2.5" scale Class A 20 Ton Shay

Steam Siphon: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/leavitt ... tive-works
Pontiacguy1
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

Another advantage is that you can machine all the cylinders for both your donkey and the Buckwalter Shay at the same time. Gotta machine them all anyway, so having the same castings and being able to use the same setup should save you some time and hassle.
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Pipescs
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pipescs »

Gotta machine them all anyway, so having the same castings and being able to use the same setup should save you some time and hassle.
Oh yes. If the Forney makes it to the track this spring, I will start the machining of the Shay parts this next year. Of Course, I know it will still take two years on the Forney.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
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Pipescs
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pipescs »

Just realized I have to take a different tack on this trip. I cannot simply enlarge all the Harris parts and use them. The order of design will have to change as the steam engines will now be totally different sizes along with the gears. This causes a lot of things to shift.

I will finish the basic box frame and begin by constructing the steam engine and attaching it. The center line of the cylinders will determine the centerline of the crank and flywheels. This will determine the placement of the drum shafts. the gears will impact shaft placement on the side frames.

OK enough whining back to work.

On the other hand, my day job of mounting the running boards on the Forney is down to the painting. All is well.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
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Pipescs
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pipescs »

Tonight's work shows that the side frames have error in the hole placement but I have made this mistake myself many times.

This is not a problem as I will be redoing them from scratch. I have started receiving other references that show a somewhat different frame that will be doable using a casting other than bar stock.

I will start on the Buckwalter's cylinders tomorrow.


Frame Assembly.JPG
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
User avatar
Pipescs
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:16 pm
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Re: The William Harris Steam Donkey Engine in 2.5 inch Scale

Post by Pipescs »

Happy Thanksgiving all.

Good day in the shop although it was not long. Painting on the Forney frame and welding up a new top for the Lubricator.

On the drawing side, I worked on the Buckwalter Cylinders and fitted them to the frame.
E1 Cylinder (Cast Iron from John Buckwalter).JPG
This gives you the Cylinder Centerline to the deck of the frame and the centerline to the Drum Side frames. All of this will be adjusted as I get the Engine drawings finished and I can fit the parts into the assembly.

The Donkey Engine had a unique way of mounting the engine cylinders to the frame. Bolts up through the deck plates into the side of the cylinder casting.
Frame Assembly.JPG
Frame Assembly 2.JPG
This is not where I need to be on the horizontal spacing of the cylinders. It will change as I draw up the crossheads, eccentrics, and the crankshaft/flywheel.
Charlie Pipes
Mid-South Live Steamers


Current Projects:

Scratch Built 3 3/4 scale 0-4-4 Forney
Little Engines American
20 Ton Shay (Castings and Plans Purchased for future)
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