Winton locomotive

[srrl5]

Below is copy of an email I recieved about the RRSC American.

David


Joe Nelson did the bulk of the origional drawings for the RRSC CP-173. Joe told me that the origional Disney 173 drawings were used as "reference". Basically, what I was told by Joe, was what they (RRSC) did was redraw the Disney drawings and make minor design/dimension changes to make enough parts different enough from the origional Disney design so the Disney family couldn't sue RRSC/Chet for theft of design. Also, it was to lower costs of the loco's parts/construction.

I've been a Carolwood Pacific enthusiast since I was a kid. I also had many conversations with Dick Bagley over the years about the Disney locomotives/railroads. Both the Carolwood and Disneyland operations. The last conversation about the Disney equipment I had with Dick was a couple of months before he died while helping him move his 2-8-0 and riding cars from RLS to LALS. During one of my many talks with Dick on the subject, he told me that Chet had origionally approached the Disney family to purchase the rights to market the Disney CP-173 but they refused the offer. Thus, we have the RRSC "design". In the early '80's, many of the lost wax castings that were used on the RRSC 173 when it was first sold were replaced with sand castings to cut costs. Jim Oetting would be the best source of info re: what was going on at RRSC at that time regarding their 173. Also, Dick marketed the Disney 173 during the 1950's for Disney.

The problem is: Ask a dozen people, get a dozen DIFFERENT versions/stories.

By the way, Judy, Dick's grand daughter has, or did have both the 173 and the 2-8-0 as of around 5 years ago when I asked John Mueller about them in an e-mail. Judy was living in the Pheonix area at the time and, I believe, John said the 173 was in the SoCal area but Judy wasn't any rush to move it. John Mueller, Roger or Babe Netz would probably know if/where Judy has the engine(s) now-a-days.

Alg

[John Greiner]

I obtained a full set of plans for the Winton Mogul and some
of the castings from Mammoth Locomotive Works about 6 years
ago. The plans are the finest I have seen, very detailed and well
executed. The locomotive is extremely well designed, having adjustable
driver gibs, piston valves, etc. Winton Brown, by all accounts, was a fine
individual.

After he exited the scene, things apparently went down hill, as the castings and plans passed through several new owners. I had to abandon this project after completing the frame, which is hanging in my workshop, due to a lack of parts.

I then built a Allen Mogul, which also is a fine engine, but I still occassionaly look sadly at the Winton frame and wish I could have completed it.

[steamin10]

Hey- yo! Are you interested in parting with the plans and frame? I am curious about this legendary company.

[Kevin_S]

David, I have one the first 10 CP 173 that RRSC built. On a lot of the plans there are several hand inked correction.
-Kevin S.

[Dick_Morris]

David, I have one the first 10 CP 173 that RRSC built.
-Kevin S.

My start was in the low 30s (I have the exact number somewhere). After many years of working on it, the finish would have been a much higher number.

[srrl5]

David, I have one the first 10 CP 173 that RRSC built. On a lot of the plans there are several hand inked correction.
-Kevin S.

Kevin,

Whos names are on the drawings for drawn by? There were at least three names of in house people I can think of, Pat Garner, Barry Hauge (yes Super Scale fame), Jim Otting who was probley the longest. I was there for about three years from the begining. At the end of the first three years we counted about 90 employees had been hired but never more then 15 employed at anyone time.

David

[Dick_Morris]

Whos names are on the drawings for drawn by? There were at least three names of in house people I can think of, Pat Garner, Barry Hauge (yes Super Scale fame), Jim Otting who was probley the longest.

I bought my first drawings with several sections around 1974 or 5. A check of the drawings shows most were drawn by P.C. Garden. I also found one by B.L. Hague. Some were corrected by M. Cornett and HCH. I found one drawn by H. Hoadley, probably the same as HCH. Later, Cornett did much of the drawing.

I found it interesting that the original drawing dates aren't annotated, just the dates of changes. The earliest change dates seem to be mid-1971. The headlight bracket, and I think the pin for the front link pocket were done by Joseph F. Nelson. Also the brace for the pilot. The bracket has a 1 June 1971 drawing date and the brace is dated 30 March 1971.

The side elevation of the locomotive and tender were done by J. Hurst and checked by Garden.

From the quick survey I took, it looks like Garden drew most of the first half or so, followed by Cornett.

Cornett dated the brass tender tank DEec 21, 71. The fiberglass tender was done by J.R. Oetting in Nov, 1980.

I also have a set of switcher/mogul drawings. In a very quick review, Garden, Hague, and Nelson all had substantial involvement with the drawings. It looks like Oetting was involved with the front truck, which I believe was an afterthought. (When I was in the store on Victory Blvd. many years ago, the employee I was talking to - whose name I don't know - described the Mogul as "something that Chet had cobbled up."

From the dates, both locomotives may have been designed in as little as 18 months for the two of them.

My first view of the CP-173 was when Chet had it on the road on what I think was a demonstration/sales trip. This was in Wimberly, Texas, at Hank Blossom's track in about 1973. He had the CP-173 and two or three fiberglass Pullmans.

[John Greiner]

Photos of the parts I have and prices are listed on my web site under Little River Miniature Railroad, Train construction.

My web site is:

http://homestead.com/lrmrr

My Email is:

lrmrrgreiner@hotmail.com

[Bob W.]

I talked to Lee Wehlann last night about his Winton locomotive. He owns the last locomotive made by Winton himself (not the last castings). It is mogul number 37 and he took it to many tracks in the midwest until he started running his Allen 10 wheeler in 1998. It's a beautiful machine.

Also, the number 1 Winton mogul was owned by Dave Stoeckel and was sold to a private buyer from his estate here in Michigan. This engine was never run, but was used for the photos in the first Winton catalog.

Bob Winkel

[Martin Hash]

I have Winton #17. The boiler is stainless steel, and the domes, headlight, and other details are gold plated. It's a piece of art as well as history. I also have all the blueprints and parts catalog if anybody needs information.

[dnevil]

My first view of the CP-173 was when Chet had it on the road on what I think was a demonstration/sales trip. This was in Wimberly, Texas, at Hank Blossom's track in about 1973. He had the CP-173 and two or three fiberglass Pullmans.

The original RRSC CP-173 still resides in Wimberley, Texas. You can read more about it and see photos here:

http://ibls.org/mediawiki/index.php?tit ... ion#CP_173

Happy steaming
Daris

[Glenn Brooks]

I remember the Winton 15" ga locomotives being the epitome of miniature locomotives when I first realized live steam was An actual going concern, back in the late '80's.

Anybody know how many he produced in 15" ga, and where they are now?

It would be wonderful to see a photo or two...