whistles

[makinsmoke]

Relative to a purchase I made recently is the following query.

We modelers are limited in size as to whistles, (probably just as well as we would run out of steam with a full sized whistle) and many are using the four chime whistle with cross vanes, and many locomotive chime whistles are five chime.

In modeling one (well the tone anyway) would one want to use the four lower notes if the lowest note can be obtained given the necessary length of the resonator, or would you want to use the top four notes?

Thoughts?

Brian

[Loco112]

would one want to use the four lower notes if the lowest note can be obtained given the necessary length of the resonator, or would you want to use the top four notes?

Either option could sound horrible, or great, you might not know untill you finnished it. We really need a music theory major to interject here, this stuff is very complicated.

I think you would to not want to drop the "root" note in any chord, and those can be in about any location within a given chord.

It might be a project that needs a lot of testing and chamber lengthening and shorting and fiddling in order to figure out which chord you are working around and what notes you might want to add and to drop in your chord. I think it will all be by experimentation and it might help to use one of those frequency measuring devices like used on a piano tuner to see what the notes in hrz.

This is a questions that has been charted and spread sheets have been generated, etc.. all over on the yahoo horn & whistle group, but its still not a simple task to answer your questions or build a whistle to any specific chord.

[kenrinc]

Yes you can drop a note but it shouldn't necessarily be the lowest note. A better idea is to look at a different inversion of the same or similar chord. You'll find that common chime whistles tend to have a sweet spot in terms of where they are in musical range: generally right in the middle between C4 (middle C) and C5. The 5 and 6 chime whistles got their beautiful tones via extended chords: simple chords with added tones which add really close intervals. If you drop notes, you generally want to keep those intervals as they are the most important part of the chord. I realize to non musicians it can be a bit daunting if not uninteresting to try to figure things out but it never hurts to sit at a piano and play around. Recently I've experimented with small 3 chime whistles using the important notes of the 5 and 6 chime whistles and I have to say I would be happy with some of the combinations. Even just a minor chord based around C5 as it's lowest note sounds pretty good to me and I am pretty neurotic about whistles. That whistle's lowest note is roughly 8.5" long. I'm considering writing an article about this as it's a fairly common subject that comes up.

The vast majority of "typical" whistles would require a fairly long chamber for the lowest note. I consider 12" a long note. How much space do you have? A typical Nathan 5 chime whistle has a lowest note roughly 11.5" long. Something like a 3 chime Hancock? (3985, 4449, etc...) the lowest note, an A, at 220hz is roughly 20-1/2" long And no, you can't change physics. It's 20-1/2" long.

$.02

Ken

[JD Johnson]

If you go to Joe Nelson's book "So you want to build a Steam Locomotive" there is a whole chapter on whistles and their construction. There is a chart as well that tells you how long the "tube" should be for each note. When I say tube, I mean the space from where the steam comes out to where the stop is soldered to the veins of the whistle provided you are making a 4 note whistle. I have made several and have had good luck with his method. One thing too, if you have a piano handy and know what the notes are on a piano, you can play the chord before you make the whistle to get an idea of what it will sound like. Hope this helps,

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian

[makinsmoke]

Yep,
I have Nelson's book and it has been work keeping the pages from getting crinkly all these years.

The specific whistle I'm interested in is the Santa Fe LM-191 5 chime long-bell passenger whistle.

According to Ron CHamberlain, the notes are F, Gsharp, C, D, abnd F.

The low F according to Nelson's chart as well as Coles' instructions for the Bagley whistle is achievable in length, so the low note is not a problem. I see what you are getting at Kenric, and wondering if that is why these whistles have F at the low and top ends of the chord.

No piano, maybe a guitar if I can find it. Is that relevant?

Maybe someone else can experiment and report back?
Brian

[Oilcan]

Brian:

In the May/June 2011 issue of LSOR, Denis Larrick wrote about his adventure fabricating a three-note chime whistle. I heard that whistle during a meet at Mill Creek Central and it sounded great, so I coaxed him to write it up for the magazine. He in turn convinced his "whistle" mentor, John McDaniel, to write up an article on designing air and steam whistles and chimes. John is well versed in tuning pipe organs and the physics involved. John's piece also was printed in the May June 2011 LSOR along with a tuning multiplier table and tempered scale.

If you don't have of a copy of that magazine, the Village Press circulation department can fix you right up.

Neil

[kenrinc]

Probably the biggest advantage to the Nelson article is the fact that a 4 chime whistle is very easy to fabricate compared to anything else other than a single note whistle. Therefore dropping a note from a 5 chime whistle and using Nelson's basic design has it's advantages.

If you want to use that whistle design but model the sound of the ATSF whistle you can do a couple things:

Only use the first 4 notes (the most obvious). In this chord they are the most important notes.

Or you can drop the lowest note (F) and use the notes A flat-C-D-F. Again, all the important notes are there but the lowest note is now a bit higher. Brian, I can send you a quick recording of either version using a sampled whistle sound that will give you a great idea of what it will sound like.

From a musicians standpoint, the chord is an F minor 6 in root position with the root doubled. It's spelled F-A flat-C-D-F

Ken-

[tburzio]

or would you want to use the top four notes?

I would prefer four separate whistles so I could blow "La Cucaracha" at crossings...

[makinsmoke]

"I would prefer four separate whistles so I could blow "La Cucaracha" at crossings...
tburzio"


That just ain't right, Man.....



Ken,
Absolutely love to hear the difference.

Thanks,
Brian

[Hudson Honey]

Question.....

Will not painting a whistle change the tone?


I know pipe organ pipes are left raw to maintain the note

Does the same hold true for a whistle?


Pamela

[LVRR2095]

Question.....

Will not painting a whistle change the tone?


I know pipe organ pipes are left raw to maintain the note

Does the same hold true for a whistle?
Pamela

Hi Pamela;
Actually...organ pipes are NOT left in a "raw" state."
As the owner in a 1919 Wurlitzer I can tell you that each and every pipe in my organ has a finish of some sort....mostly orange shellac. Painting a whistle should have no affect at all. The pitch of the whistle is determined by the speaking length of the chamber and the "timbre" is a function of the "scale" of the pipe or chamber. A whistle that is small in diameter will have a smaller sound than one that is larger in diameter which will have a more resonant tone.
Back to organ pipes...the wooden ones would absorb moisture if left un-finished and the metal pipes (usually a lead / tin alloy, but sometimes a zinc alloy) would oxidize if left without a protective coating.
Keith

[Hudson Honey]

Cool.....

Would not look very scale having a polished brass "air tank" on the side of my chooch

Mines 2" diameter and I think 8-9" long


Pamela