4-4-0 American Question

[Benjamin Maggi]

On an American engine the Walshaerts valve gear looks almost too "heavy" for the engine. It overpowers the simplicity of the design. Purely a visual thing, but maybe it is because aside from the pictures on this thread I don't recall ever seeing one before.

[hudson]

Hi,

A full size American with Walschaerts valve gear is pictured:

http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/fr ... P00553.jpg

Best regards,
hudson

NB. That's really not a beauty.

[Pontiacguy1]

The locomotive in the picture you linked to had obviously been retrofitted with the piston valves and Walschart's valve gear. Even the tender trucks are modern cast-type instead of the Arch Bar trucks which were pretty much standard issue on tenders when the 4-4-0s were built.

The last 4-4-0 to be built was a small locomotive built by Baldwin in 1945 for export to the Yucatan. For mainline US roads the 4-4-0 was considered obsolete before 1900. I don't know of any orders for 4-4-0s for American railroads after 1900.

I'd say that Mr. Maggi's objection to the appearance of piston valves and Walschart's valve gear on an American is probably shared by many rail fans. They were originally built as smaller and simpler locomotives with clean lines, and probably 99% of them ended their service lives in that manner.

I do really like the look of the 3/4" 4-4-0 that was shown in the pictures, mainly because it is so very unique. You definitely won't see another locomotive that looks similar to that on the track beside of or behind you!

EDIT: Just found where the Chicago & Illinois Midland ordered and received the last 4-4-0 built for an American road in 1928! They had gotten two virtually identical ones in 1927. They had piston valves and walschart's gear as standard items on them. They were used in passenger service. Even they didn't have the boxpock drivers on there. They look pretty nice, to me, but it still almost looks like they are missing a set of drivers.

[Rwilliams]

Railroads often times looked at what their competitors next door did and tried to do the same or better with motive power design. Some roads were more independent and marched to the beat of their own drummer with motive power. Often times that meant being creative due to economics of the time. Often times turntable limits kept bigger power from being purchased. Other situations included light rail, bridge axle weight limitations, car ferries, and tunnel clearances. More than one road bought engines too large and had to rebuild the railroad just so they could operate them. Sometimes locomotives were limited to where they could operate based on track condition and curves.

Many times it was far cheaper to kick up the power of a locomotive with a rebuild rather than build an expensive bridge or lay heavier rail across an entire division. Superheating, piston valves, outside valve gear and increase in boiler pressure could give the power of a larger engine without need for more expensive improvements. Faced with replacing car ferries or building a massive bridge across 7 known faults, the SP elected to keep locomotive length and weights the same but gain power with a serious rebuild. They took their P-1 class Pacific's and gave them a makeover including superheating, piston valves, higher boiler pressure, feedwater heaters and boosters on the trailer trucks. With no increase in engine length, the super Pacific's kept up the train speed of the fast double track division and kept within the length requirements of the car ferries until a bridge could be built over a decade later.

In the case of the modern American's, one can be sure there were underlying reasons for the special order. Many times the bean counters in the back office with their sharp pencils had a say in what would be ordered to best fill the needs of the railroad.

[makinsmoke]

That 502 engine almost looks like a Katy Mogul.....

Brian

[LVRR2095]

I have seen a picture of a 4-4-0 that was obviously shopped by someone. It is on display at Stone Mountain, Georgia. It has piston valves and Walschaert's valve gear on it. That is a very rare combination on a 4-4-0 locomotive. It appears to have the original drive wheels on it.

The Stone Mountain No. 60, The Texas II - a former San Antonio and Aransas Pass Railway 4-4-0 built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1923.It was not rebuilt with piston valves and Walschaerts gear, it was a fairly modern locomotive and was at one time owned by Paulson Spence for use on his Louisiana Eastern. It was sold to Stone Mountain after Paulson's death and is currently in Knoxville, Tennessee being restored for use on the Three Rivers Rambler Scenic ride.

Keith

[joneg]

here is a neat modern reading railroad 4-4-0

[RCW]

The Stone Mountain No. 60, The Texas II - a former San Antonio and Aransas Pass Railway 4-4-0 built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1923.It was not rebuilt with piston valves and Walschaerts gear, it was a fairly modern locomotive and was at one time owned by Paulson Spence for use on his Louisiana Eastern. It was sold to Stone Mountain after Paulson's death and is currently in Knoxville, Tennessee being restored for use on the Three Rivers Rambler Scenic ride.
Keith

I'd love to see a picture of the restored engine. Anyone else?

[Benjamin Maggi]

here is a neat modern reading railroad 4-4-0

That is almost as cool/ugly (insert appropriate adjective) as some of the D&H steam engine experiments. It surely is something only a mother could love.

[Pontiacguy1]

Apparently, Stone mountain had TWO 4-4-0 locomotives, both from the collection of the late Paulson Spence. These locomotives were both modern 4-4-0s, one was apparently built in 1922 (or maybe 1923) and the other in 1919. They both served on the Southern Pacific for many years, and were operated out of Shrieveport, Louisiana. They were both equipped with piston valves and walschaert's valve gear when built.

Why did they buy these 4-4-0s?? -- They operated mostly over branch lines in Louisiana and east Texas where the soil was soft and the bridges were smaller and had severe weight restrictions. In other words, they filled a niche, just like Mr. Williams stated above, and it was cheaper to fit the motive power to the line rather than rebuild and rework a bunch of bridges and track. They would handle a train of 2 or 3 heavyweights over these light-railed branch lines where they were probably the largest power that could safely be used.

Apparently, one of these locomotives was still being used by the SP into the 1950's. Amazing. Learn something new every day!

[Fender]

The Stone Mountain No. 60, The Texas II - a former San Antonio and Aransas Pass Railway 4-4-0 built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1923.It was not rebuilt with piston valves and Walschaerts gear, it was a fairly modern locomotive and was at one time owned by Paulson Spence for use on his Louisiana Eastern. It was sold to Stone Mountain after Paulson's death and is currently in Knoxville, Tennessee being restored for use on the Three Rivers Rambler Scenic ride.

Keith

According to http://www.steamlocomotive.com, the San Antonio and Aransas Pass had nine of these 4-4-0s built by Baldwin in 1922 or 1924. The later engines were actually smaller than the first batch!

The Red River & Gulf also had a superheated 4-4-0 built in 1919, which also ended up at Stone Mountain.
[url]http://e_lauterbach.tripod.com/104stnmtn.html[/url]

The only other superheated 4-4-0 I can think of (other than the ones already mentioned) was the Bonhomie & Hattiesburg Southern #200, which was built by Baldwin in the 1920s:
http://digilib.usm.edu/cdm/compoundobje ... 3266/rec/9

[John_S]

I'd love to see a picture of the restored engine. Anyone else?

The engine just got moved to TN about a month ago. It'll be a little while!

One of our CSPPRY members works at Stone Mountain on the weekends in the RR shop. All they've got left there now are diesels...