Boiler treatment

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Fred_V
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by Fred_V » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:50 am

I think drying the boiler after running is the most important thing you can do. I blow down at about 30-40 PSI. It has often been said that this will dry the boiler. It does not. I remove everything from the dome and remove the washout plugs. Then place a computer fan, in a housing, on top of the dome and let it run over night. The boiler is bone dry the next morning.
My housing is just something I had on hand.
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Fred V
Pensacola, Fl.

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ccvstmr
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by ccvstmr » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:24 am

Russ...not saying your idea of venting steam during steam up is valid or not...but would say, I don't leave the steaming bay area until at least one...or both...of the safeties have lifted. Creates a shower under the canopy, but it's more important to know the safeties will lift as needed during operation. Just like knowing all the feed water devices work BEFORE leaving the steam up area.

LSB...used that for a while. Stopped using that when I read some negative info regarding the use of that material. Yes, that negative review came from a third party and used by someone selling their own boiler water treatment. Like politics...difficult to know who or what to believe.

As for other boiler water treatments...there aren't that many parameters to control for our hobby boilers. High or low pH. High or low mineral content. Dissolved O2 content. Each having a variety of treatments to bring back within acceptable operating range. Let's face, there's more at stack with commercial boilers where tighter controls must be maintained for economic and production needs.

About the only thing you can be sure of when it comes to boiler waters...is there's nothing you can be sure of. Ask 10 guys how they address boiler water treatment...and you'll likely get 20 different responses. Worst part...you won't know (generally speaking) until years down the road if your methods reduced or extended boiler life. Will address some of this in a soon to be written thread for Chaski. Carl B.
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NP317
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by NP317 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:02 pm

Carl:
Points well made.

My standard steaming operating procedures do include testing all steam appliances prior to leaving the steaming bay.
I have a dental tool that works perfectly for holding the lower pressure SuperScale safety valve closed while testing the operation of the higher safety.
Same for all methods of getting water into the pressurized boiler. I need to know all will work properly before heading out onto the rails.

I learned these standard safety procedures from operating full-sized locomotives.
Thanks to Great Northern steam locomotive Engineer James Norvell. May he Steam in Peace.
~RussN

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:37 am

Important note: Terlyn Industries says LSB 8000 DOES NOT have an oxygen scanvenger additive. You need to add something for oxygen removal.

Here is the text of an email reply I received from them:

LSB8000 Locomotive Steam Boiler Treatment is typically used as a single feed product to control scale and corrosion, but he formula does not incorporate an oxygen scavenger. Although the majority of our customers do not use other chemicals with LSB8000, we have had a few people ask about compatibility with oxygen scavengers. If you feel more comfortable using an oxygen scavenger, DEHA (Diethylhydroxylamine) can be used with LSB8000. Note: As is good practice with any chemicals, Do Not mix any other products with LSB8000. If you elect to use DEHA, add a small amount to your tender when you add LSB8000.

TERLYN LSB8000 can be purchased factory direct and is packaged in 16 ounce bottles with 12 bottles per case.

Minimum order is one (1) case of 12 bottles…....….. $132.00 plus Fed-Ex Ground shipping.

Orders may be placed by Phone 800-200-4112 or Fax 727-592-0833

We accept VISA, Master Card, or personal check (Checks must clear our bank before products is shipped.)

If you have any questions, please feel welcome to contact us at 800-200-4112

Happy Steaming!!!


Sincerely,
Applications Department
TERLYN INDUSTRIES, Inc.
Clearwater, Florida
800-200-4112
727-592-0772
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

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Fender
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by Fender » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:20 pm

I thought so. If it doesn’t do anything for oxygen or pH, I see no reason not to correct for these conditions.
Dan Watson

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:48 pm

Russ, can you confirm that heating water in the boiler causes the dissolved oxygen to dissipate soon as the heat hits it? When you vent steam, are you venting all the dissolved O2? If so, what temperature/ pressure do you need to reach to first achieve this? How does this affect fresh water added from the tender? Lots of questions....

Glenn
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Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

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NP317
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by NP317 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:30 pm

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:48 pm
Russ, can you confirm that heating water in the boiler causes the dissolved oxygen to dissipate soon as the heat hits it? When you vent steam, are you venting all the dissolved O2? If so, what temperature/ pressure do you need to reach to first achieve this? How does this affect fresh water added from the tender? Lots of questions....

Glenn
Glenn:
No, I cannot confirm oxygen dissipation completeness or rate of the boiled out dissolved oxygen.
And indeed the fresh water from the tender does add dissolved oxygen to the boiler water.
That's what operational blow downs help control, along with removal of any precipitated scale and dissolved solids.
I also empty the boiler after each day of steaming.
I am following recommendations made by multiple WA State Boiler Inspectors over >15 years. Are they 100% correct? Probably not...

I can offer that after 15 years of steaming my Ten Wheeler, while following this fireup procedure, and using Terlyn 8000 water treatment, my boiler has no scale buildup, and mostly shows that clean grey surface inside. I figure that is the best proof of procedures.

Interestingly, while operating full-sized steam locomotives at two different railroads, we installed fire hose connections for filling the water tenders from the bottom. This prevented the mixing of additional oxygen while dumping water in the top, per prototype practice. That overhead water tower looks good, but... And I have seen other steam railroad operations adopting the same.

Most important though: Know your local water chemistry and use appropriate water treatment chemicals to preserve your boilers.
Plus use best boiler water management procedures.

Related:
Today we inspected a steam launch boiler built in the mid-1960s. It had seen frequent steaming through the mid-1990s.
It is a 3-drum Blackstaffe-designed boiler, running in condensing/recirculating mode. We used a small flexible scope to inspect the interiors of the three drums, the bottom 2 mud drums which can plug up if not kept clean. They were surprisingly scale free, with no accumulated scaling in the mud drums. And the main drum presented interior surfaces that were lightly scaled with lightly rusted surfaces evident. Being able to see the steel surface was another indicator of minimal scaling.

I have no idea if water treatment was used, but this surprisingly clean boiler steamed throughout the San Juan Islands (WA State) for its lifetime. If it passes a hydrostatic pressure/leak test, I would have no concerns steaming it again.
By contrast, the attached picture show an identical boiler with the end of a mud drum cut open. Lots of crud was removed to see inside. This boiler was scrapped and replaced with a new identical boiler.

~RN
P1040025.jpeg
Last edited by NP317 on Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Glenn Brooks
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by Glenn Brooks » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:35 pm

Russ, one followup question, regarding oxygenation. In your start up procedure, do you add anything that specifically scrubs dissolved oxygen from the water?

Thanks
Glenn
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....

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NP317
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by NP317 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:50 pm

Glenn Brooks wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:35 pm
Russ, one followup question, regarding oxygenation. In your start up procedure, do you add anything that specifically scrubs dissolved oxygen from the water?

Thanks
Glenn
No, I do not.
But that won't prevent me from deciding to do that later.
Again, the condition of my used boiler says it's management has been OK so far.
~RN

timmy wheeler
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by timmy wheeler » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:11 am

Does anybody know what the railroads used to control/treat dissolved oxygen in the make up water on full size locomotives back in the days of steam?

Timmy
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Fender
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by Fender » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:49 am

Many railroads used Worthington feedwater heaters, which mixed exhaust steam with the feedwater. This removed most of the oxygen before the water went into the boiler.
Dan Watson

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NP317
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Re: Boiler treatment

Post by NP317 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:42 am

And GN and SP&S used exhaust steam injector systems, with similar results(?)
I've been trying to learn more about those systems.
~RN

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