Potting electrical coil in steel
Potting electrical coil in steel
Hey, guys!
I've owned my Sag 12 Graziano lathe since 1967. It's been a pretty decent machine, with few problems. Unfortunately, clutch failure is one of them, albeit they are quite reliable.
When they fail, the clutch proper is generally in great condition, and mine is no exception. It could easily go another 50 years if the amount of wear I see is representative, but the coil has shorted, so the clutch is no longer useable.
Graziano is long gone, and I have not been successful in finding a manufacturer of magnetic clutches that can supply my needs. I'm giving some thought to rewinding the coil. I should be able to machine away the potting, at least enough to expose the surface of the wire. If I can, I should also be able to unwind the coil, so I can determine the length of wire required, plus that will allow me to determine wire gauge.
Assuming these things happen, one thing I don't know is how to pot the new coil once wound. Winding shouldn't prove to be much of a problem as I can use the Graziano to do that (it still runs, I just don't have one of the speeds).
Is there anyone on the board who has experience in potting such things? If so, this coil/clutch assembly runs in an oil bath, so that's a consideration for choosing the proper potting compound.
I'd enjoy hearing from anyone with experience related to this project.
H
I've owned my Sag 12 Graziano lathe since 1967. It's been a pretty decent machine, with few problems. Unfortunately, clutch failure is one of them, albeit they are quite reliable.
When they fail, the clutch proper is generally in great condition, and mine is no exception. It could easily go another 50 years if the amount of wear I see is representative, but the coil has shorted, so the clutch is no longer useable.
Graziano is long gone, and I have not been successful in finding a manufacturer of magnetic clutches that can supply my needs. I'm giving some thought to rewinding the coil. I should be able to machine away the potting, at least enough to expose the surface of the wire. If I can, I should also be able to unwind the coil, so I can determine the length of wire required, plus that will allow me to determine wire gauge.
Assuming these things happen, one thing I don't know is how to pot the new coil once wound. Winding shouldn't prove to be much of a problem as I can use the Graziano to do that (it still runs, I just don't have one of the speeds).
Is there anyone on the board who has experience in potting such things? If so, this coil/clutch assembly runs in an oil bath, so that's a consideration for choosing the proper potting compound.
I'd enjoy hearing from anyone with experience related to this project.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
- tornitore45
- Posts: 2077
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:24 am
- Location: USA Texas, Austin
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
I can only offer my experience with power transformers in the 200W range.
We used a type of epoxy resin, gray, typical epoxy smell with the viscosity of warm honey.
We did not pull a vacuum except for HV transformers.
If you have the capability to pull a vacuum it may help to seal any inflow of oil. Still clean mineral Oil is a good bath for coils anyway.
You may be able to pull a vacuum with a vacuum cleaner and a large bag.
There are also rubber compounds that may work in this application.
We used a type of epoxy resin, gray, typical epoxy smell with the viscosity of warm honey.
We did not pull a vacuum except for HV transformers.
If you have the capability to pull a vacuum it may help to seal any inflow of oil. Still clean mineral Oil is a good bath for coils anyway.
You may be able to pull a vacuum with a vacuum cleaner and a large bag.
There are also rubber compounds that may work in this application.
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
in Austin TX
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- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:05 pm
- Location: Elmwood, Wisconsin
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
Found this thread on Practical Machinist:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/s ... er-350254/
You'll want a thermally conductive potting compound like the ones this company sells:
https://www.lord.com/products-and-solut ... apsulation
One reason for pulling a vacuum is that voids can cause localized overheating.
You might be able to release the block of plastic from the case coil and all with heat. If you section the coil you can count the turns.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/s ... er-350254/
You'll want a thermally conductive potting compound like the ones this company sells:
https://www.lord.com/products-and-solut ... apsulation
One reason for pulling a vacuum is that voids can cause localized overheating.
You might be able to release the block of plastic from the case coil and all with heat. If you section the coil you can count the turns.
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
Thanks for the advice. I hadn't considered that the potting may require being vacuumed, but I have a vacuum casting setup, so that won't be a problem. I expect I'll put it to good use.
I appreciate the links in regards to the Practical Machinist. I rarely go there, so it's unlikely I'd have found that information. I agree that the compound I use most likely would be best if it displays thermal conductivity. The clutch circuit is fused @ 5-5/8 amps, so they most likely run warm, if not hot.
I think I have enough insight to pursue this project now. When time allows! I've been running the lathe without that speed for more than a year now. Time to get it done.
H
I appreciate the links in regards to the Practical Machinist. I rarely go there, so it's unlikely I'd have found that information. I agree that the compound I use most likely would be best if it displays thermal conductivity. The clutch circuit is fused @ 5-5/8 amps, so they most likely run warm, if not hot.
I think I have enough insight to pursue this project now. When time allows! I've been running the lathe without that speed for more than a year now. Time to get it done.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
-
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:17 pm
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
In case this helps...
I wound a new secondary for a welding transformer to convert to a 9 kva isolating transformer for my RPC, 3D printed the bobbin and used 6" rotary table to turn it, electric drill on the worm shaft and a lash-up of bearings and washers to straighten/tension the wire (3mm, possibly a bit OTT for your clutch winding!): The turns counter was a few Local Currency Units from a gentleman in China, made the process a lot more relaxed not having to tally in my head or on a piece of scruffy paper I bagged the bobbin and used some spiral cable wrap on the end of clear vinyl hose to feed the epoxy in / apply vacuum at opposite points with Lucky Bleeder, usually used for brake/clutch hydraulics, the epoxy filled the voids well! No pic, I'm afraid. Hardest part of potting was getting the bag airtight, once it was the vacuum pump pulled the epoxy through the hose (6mm / 1/4" bore) no problem, I stopped (clamped the inflow hose with a Mole/vise grip) once resin appeared at the vacuum hose but held the vacuum with the pump.
Dave H. (the other one)
I wound a new secondary for a welding transformer to convert to a 9 kva isolating transformer for my RPC, 3D printed the bobbin and used 6" rotary table to turn it, electric drill on the worm shaft and a lash-up of bearings and washers to straighten/tension the wire (3mm, possibly a bit OTT for your clutch winding!): The turns counter was a few Local Currency Units from a gentleman in China, made the process a lot more relaxed not having to tally in my head or on a piece of scruffy paper I bagged the bobbin and used some spiral cable wrap on the end of clear vinyl hose to feed the epoxy in / apply vacuum at opposite points with Lucky Bleeder, usually used for brake/clutch hydraulics, the epoxy filled the voids well! No pic, I'm afraid. Hardest part of potting was getting the bag airtight, once it was the vacuum pump pulled the epoxy through the hose (6mm / 1/4" bore) no problem, I stopped (clamped the inflow hose with a Mole/vise grip) once resin appeared at the vacuum hose but held the vacuum with the pump.
Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of Wise Men - Douglas Bader
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
Creative!
RussN
RussN
- tornitore45
- Posts: 2077
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:24 am
- Location: USA Texas, Austin
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
I would like to know more about the wire straightener. I suppose it is free to move up and down to follow the wire position on the bobbin.
Mauro Gaetano
in Austin TX
in Austin TX
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- Posts: 1955
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:10 pm
- Location: Farmington, NM
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
Might also check with a local electric motor shop about doing the potting, ones that rewind motors should have the epoxy and vacuum setup ready to do.
-
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:17 pm
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
The wire straightener wasn't that clever - I used a hand to guide the wire, but I can't see why the bearings couldn't move - the wire does a figure-of-W around the three bearings to take out any kinks, moving them closer increases tension as the copper has to go through tighter bends
If it were to follow the wire, the bearings would have to be e.g. sandwiched between two plates free to move up and down AND the spacing would need to be adjustable, doable but not as simple as it appears
Dave H. (the other one)
If it were to follow the wire, the bearings would have to be e.g. sandwiched between two plates free to move up and down AND the spacing would need to be adjustable, doable but not as simple as it appears
Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of Wise Men - Douglas Bader
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
Clever! Thanks for the tips. My project is in the near future, so anything I can learn before the attempt is certainly welcome.
H
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
- Bill Shields
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Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
I would suggest looking in Italy for something NOS before going to all this work...
did you try these folks?
http://www.gornatiservice.it/ricambi_en.html
willing to bet they know the company that originally wound the coils for that lathe
did you try these folks?
http://www.gornatiservice.it/ricambi_en.html
willing to bet they know the company that originally wound the coils for that lathe
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Re: Potting electrical coil in steel
Thanks, Bill. I hadn't found that source. I'll give them a go to see if they can help. I'm not all that anxious to try the rewind, but I'll do what I have to to get back the missing speed. Besides, all the clutches are identical, so if I can fix them, I won't have to worry about future failures.
I found the maker of the original clutches, but they are no longer making them. Strangely, one of the spares I have (with a shorted coil, removed from my machine years ago by Graziano) is marked. I hadn't noticed the mark, and the other one I have isn't marked.
H
I found the maker of the original clutches, but they are no longer making them. Strangely, one of the spares I have (with a shorted coil, removed from my machine years ago by Graziano) is marked. I hadn't noticed the mark, and the other one I have isn't marked.
H
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.