Garratt in Australia!

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SPSteam2491
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by SPSteam2491 »

Bill Shields wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:05 pm but then there is the disadvantage of 'will they fit on existing turntables' ?
Don't need to turn them around if they look the same on both ends. Both ends have pilot trucks to guide them around corners and with the cab being roughly in the middle, you get the same view from either end. It's really quite an ingenious design.

Which US manufacturer had the license? All the research I have done on those engines I never came across a confirmed piece that one did have the license.
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John LaFavor
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Bill Shields
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by Bill Shields »

Turntables were more than just turning end for end.

How get into roundhouse for service if bay is not straight through?

Still need turntable...

No disagreement that it is an ingeniously good design for their intended market.

Same concept applies to many of the very good French steamers...good locos and quite efficient -> but you almost never saw them in the USA.

How many readers can name the most famous French steam designer....without looking him up? (Readers in UK and EU are excluded from this challenge since they probably know)

And you just have to admit...the Garratt is a profile that 'only a mother could love'.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

Which US manufacturer had the license?
I couldn't remember, so I searched a little bit and found this:
According to Garratt Locomotives of the World by A.E. Durrant

The largest Garratt locomotive proposed (none were built) was the "Super Garratt" or "Mallet Garratt" to be built by ALCO for the American market
Maybe that is what I was remembering.
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by jcbrock »

Gra2472 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:09 pm I was wondering though if anyone had a good photo or drawing of how they did the articulated connections between the engines and boiler chassis/carriage assembly. I am having a hard time finding anything.
All the information you could want is at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry: https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.o ... ock-co-ltd

At one time they were very helpful but they don't have much online yet and they seem pinched for staff as they say their research center is currently closed.

The steam intake and exhaust lines were ball and socket and the reversing linkage was more Rube Goldberg. If you're serious Garrett I'd track down Jerry Kimberlin at GGLS and see what he's done.

OP Mike and John L, strike up a conversation with Tim K at the St Croix. We've had our little fan club for these for a long time!
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by Gra2472 »

Exellent. Thank you for the help. I am sort of serious about it. I have a pair of West Valley 2-8-0s that I might kit bash into a Garratt if I can’t find new homes for them soon. I can’t store them forever, and my old man has been talking about building a Garratt for as long as I can remember. It’s rather unlikely to happen, but I want to do some basic research into it to see if it’s even possible.
7.5" Allen Mogul
3 x 7.5" West Valley Baldwin Westinghouse Electrics
The railroad is almost done.
G. Augustus
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SPSteam2491
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by SPSteam2491 »

There are other ways of turning engines around if required. If you also don't have a roundhouse and just utilize an engine house, you really don't need a turntable. A simple wye track will also accomplish the same thing if you need. While having access to a turntable is nice, the length of a Garratt is not any longer than a articulated engine with a tender. And the fact that you can run a Garratt in reverse with no downsides to tracking ability proved well for the situations it was used in. That problem doesn't exist much in the US as we have many steam engine facilities with the ability to turn big engines around. Perhaps that's another reason why it's design wasn't picked up.

Personally, I think the look of the Garratts is really cool. I prefer the rounded end tanks versions over those with square end tanks on either end. The rounded tanks give a streamlined look. I think of them like the hammock version of a steam engine :lol: A boiler hung between two sets of running gear is a cool concept and it worked very well for the railroads that used them.

It would have been really cool to see what a US version of a Garratt would have been, knowing that we loved to design big engines. Knowing that ALCO designed the Big Boys, one could only imagine how big and powerful they could make a Garratt.
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John LaFavor
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by jcbrock »

You folks made me go look it up. The very first licensee of the Garratt design from Beyer Peacock was the Baldwin Locomotive Works in 1910, according to pg 288 in Beyer,Peacock Locomotive Builders to the World (Transport Publishing Company 1982)
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by Bill Shields »

Ah...our home town heroes.

:mrgreen:
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Chris Hollands
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by Chris Hollands »

The big reason they were so popular in Southern Africa / Australia and quite a few in South America was the track they were running on .

The great percentage were narrow gauge 3'6 and smaller so track conditions were usually on the cheap side with light rail and tight curves .

When they started to get quite big after about the 1940s the limiting factor for axle weights was a lot to do with old wooden bridges .

Even the NSW AD60 as stated built in the early 50s was one of the largest built and had a tractive effort of about 68000lbs had a very restrictive axle

loading when designed and built .

If these engines were built for US/Canada they would of been enormous with the better track and clearances .
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by Fender »

Bill Shields wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:49 pm In the States we usually put all the drivers under the boiler.

There were exceptions (Erie triplex):where we put drivers under the tender, but they had a habit of getting slippery as water and coal were consumed.
The Southern Railway (U.S.) made some interesting (but short-lived) experiments by putting the mechanism of obsolete locomotives under the tenders of newer locomotives, and feeding steam from the main boiler to the tender:

(From www.Steamlocomotive.com)
“Beginning in 1915, at least seven of the Southern engines -- 4535-4539 and 4576 (2-8-2s) -- were fitted with a "tractor" on the tender, essentially converting the tender into a 2-8-0 with 18 x 24" cylinders. In place of the usual two bogie trucks, the design placed the tender tank and bunker on a frame that held the cylinders, Four evenly spaced axles holding 50" (1,270 mm) wheels and a single axle at the front with 30" (762 mm) wheels. (The Erie and Virginian Triplexes used similar tender engines.) Thus equipped, the tender weighed 230,000 lb (104,326 kg( fully loaded and developed 23,100 lb (10,478 kg) starting tractive effort. (4561 received a 2-6-0 tender engine set up.)
Southern diagram (drawing number 25-F-79 dated 31 July 1917 shows the Consolidation layout with 18" x 24" cylinders. 4561's setup used the Mogul running gear originally delivered by Rogers as part of the 1889 locomotive (works number 4190).
The RME report described the result as a "duplex" engine and said the design was a response to congestion on the 68-mile (109.5 km), notoriously adversely graded, single-tracked Saluda grade in western North Carolina. (Note: this grade exceeded 5%). In service, the duplex could move 30% more tons per train than could its non-duplex duplicate. A moment's thought will show that as the boiler and grate weren't enlarged, this bonus had limited duration before the whole assembly ran out of puff.
This isn't to say the Southern oblivious to the demand side's problems. They reduced the Mike's cylinder diameters by an inch to 26" (660 mm). The fireboxes were fitted with brick arches and a feed water heater that used exhausted steam from the air compressor. The result, claimed RME, did not "overtax the Mikado boiler to any great extent."
Locobase 84 refers to a photograph of Ss class 2-10-2 5046 showing the tractor engine in a 2-6-2 wheel arrangement under the tender.
Another problem, which to a lesser extent also affected Beyer-Garratt locomotives, was that as the tender used up its water and coal, its factor of adhesion dropped considerably with greater slipping and loss of traction. It's also not clear to Locobase how steam admission was coordinated between the large cylinders forward and the smaller cylinders behind. As might be expected, the tender tractors were removed in a few years.”
Last edited by Fender on Mon Jun 19, 2023 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dan Watson
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Fender
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by Fender »

Here’s a photo of one of the Southern duplex loco.
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Dan Watson
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Re: Garratt in Australia!

Post by jcbrock »

But if you were sitting on that tender...hmmm
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