Propane Burner options

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Odyknuck
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Propane Burner options

Post by Odyknuck »

Looking at different burner methods and came across this one. It's not the preferred rectangle, however I am wondering if it would work well in my
7 1/2" x 9" firebox. Any thoughts?

https://www.cajun-outdoor-cooking.com/p ... rner-618lp
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Bill Shields
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by Bill Shields »

It will make heat, but you can do better

Use the burners and rework the manifold

Remember you need to keep excess air out . And allow only combustion air in -> Which is tough with that shape
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
ccvstmr
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by ccvstmr »

Odyknuck wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:09 am Looking at different burner methods and came across this one. It's not the preferred rectangle, however I am wondering if it would work well in my
7 1/2" x 9" firebox. Any thoughts?

https://www.cajun-outdoor-cooking.com/p ... rner-618lp
Jim...short response, no. Burners shown in your photo link are impingement burners. As the name implies, it takes two burners with the flame spears contacting one another to create the "impingement". One of the drawbacks of those burners is they require a substantial amount of head space above the burners to perform properly...maybe 6 to 8". Don't think your firebox has that kind of vertical space available. Will add, if you have a firebox arch (which you should include in the burner/firebox design), that will reduce the head space available.

A better burner choice would be the rosebud/slotted cap burners. These only need approx. 3 to 4" of head space. Side to side clearance between burners also needs to be examined. Can pack these on manifold with 1.5 to 1.75" spacing. Consider staggering adjacent rows of burners to create as much of a wall-to-wall blue bed of flames. There are several sizes of rosebud burners to choose from. You might look at the larger size(s). An Artzberger RGS-20 is going to need a whole bunch of Btu's. And then, hard to say how long a tank propane will last to run the beast.

There are other threads here in Chaski-land regarding propane burners and propane loco firing "systems". You might check some of those out when you step away from the shop for a break. Just saying. Carl B.
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Odyknuck
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by Odyknuck »

I also considered just buying the burner nozzles and converting them to Marty burners with a simple cap. 2 bucks a piece is a good place to start and saves a lot of work making them from scratch. I have some square tubing to make the manifold.
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NP317
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by NP317 »

Some thoughts:
Consider that 70% +/- of heat transfer into the boiler is in the firebox from radiant energy through the side and crown sheets. So having burners that just impinge on the lower side sheets greatly increases heat transfer into the water in the boiler.
LocoParts burners can do this due to the arrangement of the burners, IF you mount the assembly low enough in the firebox. The flame rosettes provide good coverage. My Ten Wheeler has steamed well using them.

The goal is to get a fire that replicates a hot bed of coals. Low and broad coverage in the firebox. The burner on my Mikado uses slotted tubes that produce a broad low hot fire. I have posted pics of this burner in other discussions.
(And this new computer does not yet have those photos transferred from my old computer...)
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ChuckHackett-844
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

NP317 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:47 am Consider that 70% +/- of heat transfer into the boiler is in the firebox from radiant energy through the side and crown sheets.
True ...
NP317 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:47 am So having burners that just impinge on the lower side sheets greatly increases heat transfer into the water in the boiler.
....
RussN
From my experience you do not want any part of the flame hitting the sides of the firebox. As soon as a flame hits the (relatively) cold firebox side the flame is 'quenched' below the point where it will continue burning. Therefore you have stopped some of the fuel from providing heat. 99% of the energy transfer is via radiant heat.

This is also why an arch is highly recommended in propane locomotives. Without the arch the flame (still burning even though you can't see it) is sucked into the colder flues and quenched - hence lost heating.

Both of these quenching situations can cause an acrid smell in the stack which is caused by the unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust.

... at least that's my experience ...
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
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Fender
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by Fender »

I would think that a propane burner that heated some type of ceramic or nichrome wire coil in the firebox would produce more radiant heat than by directing the flame directly against the firebox sheets.
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NP317
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by NP317 »

Chuck H.:
Thanks for your education on cold quenching of the propane flames. It makes sense and I will remember that.
My Ten Wheeler propane burner -with "Marty style" burners- has them spaced so the rose flames just barely touch the side sheets.
And both my propane-fired steamers do have arches installed. The longer burn path seems necessary for more complete combustion of the gasses.
Regards,
RussN
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ChuckHackett-844
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

Fender wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:53 pm I would think that a propane burner that heated some type of ceramic or nichrome wire coil in the firebox would produce more radiant heat than by directing the flame directly against the firebox sheets.
I have wanted to try placing thick stainless strips about .25" away from the firebox sides and aim flame on them intentionally. After they get to red/white hot they won't quench the flame and they will radiate to the firebox just like a coal fire.

A gentleman I met at Train Mountain had a grid of SS bars above the burner on the same theory.
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
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ChuckHackett-844
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by ChuckHackett-844 »

NP317 wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:09 pm The longer burn path seems necessary for more complete combustion of the gasses.
Regards,
RussN
Yes, propane is characterized as a 'slow burning' fuel and still burning even when not apparent so a long gas path is essential.
Regards,

Chuck Hackett, UP Northern 844, Mich-Cal Shay #2
Owner, MiniRail Solutions, LLC, RR Signal Systems (http://www.MiniRailSolutions.com)
"By the work, One knows the workman"
Odyknuck
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by Odyknuck »

Thanks everyone for the great information as it gives me plenty to ponder.
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Chris Hollands
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Re: Propane Burner options

Post by Chris Hollands »

Just fired up my Al Von Ruben burner yesterday worked like a treat - my wife walked by about 5 ft away from the burner and said you can feel the heat from here .
It has a capacity of 300000 btu at 3 psi but is designed for normal running at 175000 at 1-2 psi .
I added a idle valve so you can turn off the main throttle valve and set the idle valve to just keep a low flame , seems to work great in the open see what happens when on the engine .
It is designed to mimic a coal bed on the grates .
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Last edited by rmac on Fri Apr 07, 2023 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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