ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

This forum is dedicated to the Live Steam Hobbyist Community.

Moderators: cbrew, Harold_V

pat1027
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:45 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by pat1027 »

Pursuing an ASME code for miniature boilers is a bit of a solution searching for a problem. Careful what you wish for.
Pontiacguy1
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by Pontiacguy1 »

Careful what you wish for.
Agreed!! With the safety record we have in our hobby with boilers, the only reason any state would regulate us is because they simply want to regulate us, and anything else that they can. Nobody can show that it is enhancing safety in any way by having a state 'inspect' our live steam hobby-sized boilers. Ditto for requiring boilers be built to a 'code' that wasn't intended for what we're doing and the size we're building in.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread.
User avatar
PeterCraymer
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:57 am
Location: Maysville, Ga.

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by PeterCraymer »

All of the state inspectors I have worked with here in Georgia have been excellent. as long as we have all our ducks in a row and they observe the hydro, they can do their inspections and then want to see the trains run! They do their job but also acknowledge that we are sitting on top of these things and have a lot (or little) at stake should there be a situation. Professionally, the guys are used to climbing inside and around the full size boilers and respect what we are doing on a much smaller scale. It doesn't diminish the need for safety and proper relief valves etc., but it is like comparing grapefruit and tangerines. similar but not the same. In my professional experience with the state, they do send an inspector here in Georgia to look at pressure vessels and are pretty thorough to make sure we are doing the right things including exercising safety valves. Like mentioned, every state is different and I am not sure what the solution is that needs a problem! What would we be trying to gain?
User avatar
Dick_Morris
Posts: 2841
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by Dick_Morris »

the only reason any state would regulate us is because they simply want to regulate us,
I think you will find that regulations covering hobby boilers are already in place in most states and have been for many years.

35-40 years ago there was an attempt by an organization called Minirail to develop a set of standards for model boilers with the goal of them being accepted by states in a manner similar to the way ASME codes apply to industrial boilers. There was such an outcry that it was dropped.
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by Glenn Brooks »

Kitsap Live Steamers in Washington State advocated and wrote the first State hobby boiler code 25 or 30 years ago. The state boiler inspector worked with KLS to craft the language and submit to the State legislature for inclusion in our State boiler code. Subsequently the code became a widely adopted model and today is implemented inn30 or so states across the US.

Part of the background KLS submitted to the state legislature at the time, was a comprehensive study of miniature train boiler usage, and all known Hobby boiler incidents going back to the early days of ride on 1” scale and 1.6” scale locomotives from the 1930’s to the present. What our Club discovered is that regardless of max pressure, throughout the entire history of the live steam movement there has never been a boiler explosion, or boiler related injury. Quite a few boilers have been built improperly and condemned and removed from service. Many have run out their useful life, or neglected and become unsafe. However, no hobby boilers have ever been reported as “exploding” or catastrophically rupturing, and no serious inquiries have ever been recorded- anywhere, by any club. This history, and the attendant hobby boiler engineering body of knowledge and safety record convinced our state legislature to set up the program we have now benefited from for well over 30 years.

The one lesson that has become abundantly clear, since passage of the code, is that our typical 3/8” boiler plate hobby boilers are way overbuilt, and are orders of magnitude safer than larger commercial boilers - which themselves are indeed fundamentally safe. These comments that OMG!, anything over 100 psi is a disaster waiting to happen, is on its face simply not true. What makes hobby boilers safe is the engineering standard , use of approved materials, and the approval and inspection protocol that many States and clubs around the country have adopted and implement on a routine, ongoing basis.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
Bill Shields
Posts: 10459
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 am
Location: 39.367, -75.765
Contact:

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by Bill Shields »

I never said or implied that over 100 psi was inherently unsafe...just that at that pressure, club boilers are technically into the power boiler code range...and if there should be a problem, could attract unwanted attention and legal problems .
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
318J
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:27 pm
Location: Meramec Valley, MO

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by 318J »

Glenn Brooks wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 1:30 amWhat our Club discovered is that regardless of max pressure, throughout the entire history of the live steam movement there has never been a boiler explosion, or boiler related injury. Quite a few boilers have been built improperly and condemned and removed from service. Many have run out their useful life, or neglected and become unsafe. However, no hobby boilers have ever been reported as “exploding” or catastrophically rupturing, and no serious inquiries have ever been recorded- anywhere, by any club.
That may very well be because most boilers in this scale do not contain a large enough volume of superheated water to "properly" explode in a BLEVE-type situation. In even a worse-case scenario the boiler will vent its volume violenty and quickly, but it won't explode. That is not to underplay what we are dealing with, in the event of a boiler failure these could still cause severe injury, very possibly death, from scalding and other means. Very bad deal? Yes. Detonating like a bomb? No.

Your point still stands, as I'm aware of very few incidents where our boilers have had any incidents at all.
-Sam
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
User avatar
Bill Shields
Posts: 10459
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 am
Location: 39.367, -75.765
Contact:

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by Bill Shields »

Medina OH?

A bit larger than many of our models, but caused fatalities and a lot of backlash.
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
318J
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:27 pm
Location: Meramec Valley, MO

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by 318J »

Bill, if your reply was directed at me, I meant "In this scale" -> 1" to 2.5" scale was the generality of my statement.

At any rate Medina involved a 110hp Case traction engine, which has a full sized boiler. It wasn't a scale model, miniature, or "hobby sized" boiler. For perspective a Case 110's boiler (minus smokebox length) is about 13 feet long, with a barrel diameter of 38 inches. The energy potential in that much superheated water is exponentially more than an ASME state exempted boiler with a barrel 12" or less in diameter and fireboxes under 12"x12, like in MO, IL, and others.

I'm aware of only one state without exemptions like such, and that is Pennsylvania. Are there others? When I lived there and was looking into restarting my 0-4-0 project I quickly found out that would be an issue. I doubt there would have been any problems, but better safe than sorry. I now live in a state with hobby boiler laws, so it's a non-issue for me.

Glenn is correct about the good safety record for hobby sized miniature boilers. A combination of being overbuilt, tested and inspected regularly, and not being in the same league as a large boiler as far as something catastrophically going wrong is concerned.
-Sam
Boilermaker, Pipefitter, former Railroader
"Preserving the Past and Ensuring Our Future"
Glenn Brooks
Posts: 2930
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Woodinville, Washington

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by Glenn Brooks »

I may have misspoken about 1” scale and smaller boilers. I need to check with our senior boiler folk in the club to see whether these scale boilers were included in the study. Definitely so for the 7.x” ga world. I could see 1” scale certainly should/could be built with much lighter materials than the 1.6” scale. Hence more appropriate for low pressure operation. My first steamer was a late 1940’s 4-4-2 Atlantic, (7.5” gauge) with a 12” code boiler and big 12” drivers. The safety popped at 90 psi. Super fun engine, but alas, a horrible performer. No doubt due to the low pressure and very wet steam.

Currently I have an antique, non operational, 12 5/8” gauge antique 4-4-0 with a 14” boiler built for 100 psi. It has a riveted boiler built somewhere in the period after 1904. The safety is set at 100 psi and the tube measures out at .250” wall thickness. I’ve read 100 psi was a standard operating pressure in those days due to available metallurgy and type of boiler plate available for small boilers.
Moderator - Grand Scale Forum

Motive power : 1902 A.S.Campbell 4-4-0 American - 12 5/8" gauge, 1955 Ottaway 4-4-0 American 12" gauge

Ahaha, Retirement: the good life - drifting endlessly on a Sea of projects....
User avatar
NP317
Posts: 4557
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Northern Oregon, USA

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by NP317 »

Note about the Medina, Ohio, traction engine boiler explosion:
The NTSB accident report (which I read in full) stated that the source of the boiler failure was the crown sheet.
It failed where the thickness had eroded to just 1/16" !
Cause: Lack of proper boiler maintenance or testing. A sad and fatal error on the part of the owners and operators.

Here in Oregon, the State boiler inspectors no longer perform or require inspections for hobby boilers or steam traction engines!
When I joined the Western Antique Aeronautic and Automobile Museum (WAAAM) in Hood River, OR, I was quickly "assigned" to their "Steam Team" because of my background. My first action was to purchase an ultrasonic thickness tester to survey the boiler of their >100 year old Altman Taylor traction engine.

My second action was to provide financial numbers to the Board of Directors to justify retubing the boiler which had an unknown maintenance history.
They agreed (based on reduced insurance costs) and 5 years later that traction engine is steaming again with two new cast gears, crankshaft, Babbit main bearings, crank pins, full and accessible documentation of all work performed plus operating history records.

We also easily convinced the Oregon State Chief Boiler Inspector to let us pay him to properly inspect and test that rebuilt boiler. For the cost of his day's "labor" the museum's insurance rate for that traction engine reduced even more, further justifying the expenses.
My boiler survey was highly influenced by reading the NTSB accident report!

Several of us here in Oregon still maintain our hobby boiler "certifications" through Kitsap Live Steamers (KLS), because of their accepted inspection and testing programs with Washington State Dept of Labor and Industries Pressure Vessel Division. Our KLS hobby boiler certifications are accepted by many West Coast USA tracks, including Train Mountain Railroad.

All interesting evolutions of boiler testing in Washington and Oregon, USA.
RussN
Last edited by NP317 on Fri May 26, 2023 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Bill Shields
Posts: 10459
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:57 am
Location: 39.367, -75.765
Contact:

Re: ASME BPVC Section I Power Boilers

Post by Bill Shields »

I knew that would light some fires. 😃
Too many things going on to bother listing them.
Post Reply